Thank you. Great article. And you’re right, most people have completely romanticized what it’s like to live in Italy. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve lived in Sicily for the past three years, and I absolutely love it, however, there definitely are challenges.
I really appreciate the candor in this post- finally! Someone saying the quiet parts out loud! Or even willing to take the blinders off to see the dark parts to begin with. I have been quite mortified for some time (let's be honest, more than usual being a woman on planet earth) after witnessing a male journalist in Florence nonchalantly mention at a dinner he was late because he had to write a story about a homicide, when I inquired on the details he said a woman had been murdered by her companion. Shocked, but still in the right of mind to snap back "so it was a femicide, not a homicide." He shrugged his shoulders and said "I guess!" and moved on. Tucking into a free meal while a woman he just hurriedly wrote about (and couldn't be bothered to name the crime accurately!) laid dead at the hands of the indifferent patriarchy.
Wow, Coral, I can imagine how you felt. I would have had so much rage combined with an awful sense of hopelessness at the enormity of how women's lives truly do not matter in this f'ed up patriarchy. Thank you for your comment. Sending you a hug.
Wow — this hit hard and honest. Thank you for having the guts to write it. As a fellow Californian (albeit a foreigner) actively planning my move to Italy, I found myself nodding through so much of this — especially the contrast between vacation Italy and real-life Italy.
We’ve over-romanticized Italy into something that doesn’t always exist, and that mythmaking fuels unrealistic expectations… and yes, over-tourism. The dream of pasta under olive trees doesn’t include the paperwork, the isolation, or what it feels like to be “the outsider” — especially as a woman, and especially when solo. I’m grateful you’re willing to call that out without sugarcoating it.
I’m moving with my family when I retire, and even with that support, I already sense how challenging integration could be. Italians can be incredibly warm — but not necessarily open in the way many Americans expect. The “tight tribe” thing is real, and it’s tough when you weren’t born into it. But as a perpetual straniero who’s moved from country to country, I’ve come to expect that kind of guardedness. It doesn’t surprise me anymore — if anything, it feels like part of the deal. You arrive. You observe. You adapt. And sometimes you still remain on the edges — and that has to be okay.
What I think about more, though, is how this will land for my daughters. They’ve been raised in California — where kindness, inclusion, and emotional openness are the norm — and soon they’ll be young women navigating a new culture that doesn’t always reward those traits. I want them to love Italy for its beauty and rhythm, but also be aware of the cultural dynamics they’ll face. The warmth here is real, but it’s not the same as belonging — and they’ll need to learn how to find strength in that space in-between.
Also? You’re spot-on about Florence. Beautiful, yes. But as a Californian who thrives on casual connection and laid-back openness, I totally get the mazza nel culo vibe. 😬
This was brave, sharp, and needed. More of this, please.
Ciao Chandi! Currently LA is my home and fish tacos and a Corona are my go to comfort foods. We have picked Liguria…and not the overrated Cinque Terre/Portofino side but closer to Sanremo/Imperia. People seem to be pretty chill in smaller towns and a good bottle of Vermentino is a great social lubricant. I look forward to more of your posts and thanks for subscribing to my humble early musings! A presto!
Thanks for opening up and sharing, Shandi. I am sorry you've had to go through those experiences, but it's important that you share them. I live in Belize, and sexism is alive and well here, too. Oddly enough, it's often reinforced by women. For example, the immigration department, whose staff is easily 50% women, prefers that residency applications be presented by men, with women and children listed as dependents (regardless of income-earning status). If you attempt to stray from this "norm," you will face additional bureaucratic hurdles (the process is already a time-consuming and frustrating one).
Femicide and violence against women are also a significant issue here. Thankfully, my family and I are sheltered from this disturbing aspect of Belizean life.
As I'm sure is the same for many others who read your piece, I was unaware that these issues were so prevalent in Italy; your piece was eye-opening. Thanks for expanding my awareness, Shandi.
Loved this post, as well as Huddle Masses, Is It Romanticized, and Two Things You Must Know. It’s important to add some unvarnished truth to the romanticized views in film and social media. We moved to Lucca 8 months ago and are loving it here, but we had lots of preparation. We spent 35 years traveling throughout Italy before making the move. My husband formerly worked in Italy, and I spent years in state government, so we both have an understanding of, and high tolerance for, bureaucracy. We’re also in a privileged position—married and retired—and my government pension is not taxed in Italy. (That would change if I became a citizen, but the contribution toward health care that I will pay as a non-citizen is far less than the tax burden as a citizen.) My husband is presently studying for his license, but I have no intention of driving here, so we carefully chose a location where I can walk nearly everywhere. The friendship part is also true. We’ve made some Italian friends, but we’ve made many more friends within Lucca’s expat/immigrant community. All in all, living in Italy is good for us, but it’s most definitely not for everyone.
Fun to hear you are in Lucca. I lived there for a year-and-a-half stint in 2017/18. Also, because of family friends there, it was a key place I spent time on my first trip to Italy in the 1980s when I was backpacking around on $10 a day.
Lucca has sure gotten on the tourist radar lately in a way it never used to be!
I moved to Italy with my partner and daughter, so my experience has been quite different from that of a single woman. Thank you for shedding light on a side of Italy that many people - especially those drawn by the "I need to get out of America" impulse - might not consider. Whether it’s a cultural blind spot or a generational issue, I can confirm that these challenges do exist for women here. Strength and resilience are definitely essential for anyone planning to make the leap. I’ve noticed some small signs of progress as a foreigner living here, which is encouraging, but the pace of change is still very slow.
This is a valuable post; thank you. As an American from a progressive state, I wonder how it would feel to be a woman in Italy. This gives me a point of view that is not often emphasized and I am appreciative. I’m an older woman with a spouse, but it worries me to live in a patriarchal society when I’ve fought so long in my career to be on equal footing with men. I still want to come and live there, but am beginning to think doing so for an extended period could be very hard. ♥️
Twenty years ago, I lived in Florence with my American husband, back when I was married. And in my experience, foreign women in Italy are treated by Italian men quite differently when they have a husband at their sides.
Apart from the experience 20 years ago, I could also tell during the recent experiences while remodeling, that I definitely would have been treated differently if a husband had existed. He wouldn't even have needed to be able to speak Italian. If his presence was detected, it would have been enough.
I will also say that I have encountered plenty of American couples in Italy where the woman is immune to it because of the existence of her husband.
I empathize with your comment about fighting in your career to be on equal footing. Story of most women's career lives. I'm curious what your job was and what state you live in?
😡 that really angers me- any man feeling that this is ok is crazy! Question: are there women contractors there? We are seeing more women in the trades here…
I've never encountered female contractors in Italy, but it's not like I am in the business of renovating places all around Italy so I really don't know. But normally you would hire an architect and the architect would find the contractor. There are female architects.
In my case, I did have an architect for some of it, but for other things I hired workers on my own. And the worst problems were from those who I hired on my own.
I am so glad you mentioned the critiquing! Italian boyfriends exhaust me by criticizing 1) things that I never even anticipated merited a discussion 2) continue on a roll even after I have cried, "BASSSTTTTAAAAAA! ho capito 10 minuti fa!" and 3) tend to criticize stuff that they are guilty of doing more than I am and 4) and this is not just boyfriends: cannot accept that I grew up in a different culture and can do things in a different way than what they learned and still live a good life. [You did mention this, but I am just corroborating it.] Oh, and seem to ignore (or forget) explanations for WHY I do what I do and just remember that I am an idiot.
Congrats on your post, Chandi, it’s well put. I now spend most of my retirement in Tuscany, and although I feel quite at home, having been born here and immigrated to Canada when I was 10, I’ve had to re-adapt to many cultural differences.
I love what Italy offers me, as I share each week in my newsletter, Sipping Italy with Tino. The way I see it, like everything else in life, you need to give up something to gain something. There’s a price for everything.
I’m deeply grateful for what Canada gave me, but at this stage in my life, it’s time to indulge in art, music, good food, lazy afternoons in the Tuscan countryside, strolls through weekly markets, and the sound of church bells reminding me that some old traditions still endure.
I’ve chosen to put on a pair of blinders and focus only on what brings me joy. And thankfully, there’s plenty of that here. Keep on writing, it’s wonderful.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It’s easy for people to fall in love with the fantasy of a place.
I’m part of a couple who moved from the US to Mexico in 2017. Moving to another country is not all sunshine and rainbows and I think it’s important to share some of the downsides.
Playa del Carmen. It’s a resort town but so young there are few people “from Playa.” We’re nearly all transplants - including Mexicans — so it creates a nice inconclusive vibe.
Ah, the Mayan Riviera. There was a chunk of time when I was living in Colorado, when I went as often as I could to Playa and Tulum. For a period of about 5 years I managed once a year. Then I moved to Qatar. And I haven't been back to the Mayan Riviera since 2012. As much as I loved Playa and Tulum, I was disconcerted to see so much development and not always for the better, each time I went. But I do love the area and I'd be interested to hear more about your life there.
We love it but it has grown a LOT since 2012. You wouldn’t recognize it. SO much building. Just walked up 5th to 54th street and it’s packed with condos, shops, and restaurants the whole way. That was a quiet neighborhood when we first came here.
Yeah, and Playa grew A LOT in the years I was going there, between 2004 and 2012. To the point where I did not like it as much in the later years. I much preferred the earlier version.
Qatar was super interesting. I learned so much about that part of the world and met great people. It was an incredibly safe place to live. There are NO gun stores at all.
I'm so sorry to hear how you've been treated in Tuscany. It's really unfair. I appreciate your sharing your insights and observations, especially since I have a number of very important women in my life--four daughters and a wife--who all spend some time in Italy. Some of them have experiences in common with you, although you're also right that they are spared some of the discrimination because they have a husband/father nearby. Your story may be very valuable for anyone thinking of pulling up roots to move to Italy, or any foreign country, for that matter.
Yes, and since you used the word "unfair" I will say it can feel unfair that the only way I would have spared the ugly stuff that happened during the remodel is if I'd had a dude at my side 😬
These lines really struck me: "Florence, for me, has to be about the history, art, and beauty. But as far as people who really feel like my people, they are where I grew up in Santa Cruz."
I wrote a post a few months ago called "A beautiful existence or a full life?" and found myself digging really deeply into these kinds of tradeoffs. People need to know that anywhere you go, there will be downsides, some of them serious. And maybe it will still be worth it! But an international move has a much higher chance of success when people go into it with open eyes.
My husband and I moved to Italy almost two decades ago with small children, so I didn't experience the gender-specific challenges you mention. But we did find it so hard to make ends meet on Italian salaries that we ended up moving to the Netherlands. Looking back, I'm happy my daughter grew up somewhere with better gender equality, especially every single time I read about another femicide in Italy.
That said, we're still in love with Italy. My husband and I bought a little stone house in Umbria last year, and we're planning to move back now that we're more financially stable and both kids will be off to university in the next couple of years. My husband will continue his (remote) job at an international company, and I'm planning to start a little bookshop downstairs.
What about you? Is Florence a long-term home for you? What do you do to fill that need for hugs and people who feel like your people?
Wow, I am getting all the feels with your sentence: "I'm happy my daughter grew up somewhere with better gender equality, especially every single time I read about another femicide in Italy."
I have such a hard time with what girls and young women face in the patriarchy. That is not say that "older" women don't face it too, as my story attests, but what makes me ache is looking back on the shock of it hitting me like a big rig truck when I was 15 and having no preparation for it. And I really hate to think of any young being in the same situation.
The male gaze was suddenly all over me, unrelenting, while inside I was still a girl who didn't know I'd changed. Who didn't know this big rig truck was barreling my way, and who certainly didn't know how to handle it.
As I entered the world of restaurant work as a teen, and then backpacked in Europe and Asia at ages 19 and 20, objectification and sexism was constantly coming at me, and I didn't know how to handle it. There was no training. My parents and teachers never mentioned the word "patriarchy" or "male gaze" or "objectification". No one prepped us girls for what we'd face. No one taught us how to say no, how to have boundaries. It was way before the internet so if we didn't get it at home or in school, there was no place to encounter people talking about it.
It was this "thing" that hit me out of nowhere and that left me shocked and confused. Since no one said it was "a thing" and since it didn't have a name, I couldn't get a grasp on it.
All that to say, I really hate the idea of young women suddenly realizing they are not safe in the world--suddenly learning about femicide and "learning" that the world doesn't care about women's lives.
I LOVE this article, thank you so much Chandi for sharing these perspectives! I am a solo female who moved abroad without knowing a support group as well.
I had originally wanted to move to Italy but ended up in Portugal, where the massive amount of misogyny surprises and guts me, every single day.
There is also a huge problem with domestic violence here and nothing is done to the men committing it. I've had some crazy experiences, all from overtly aggressive men here. Things that never happened to me in California, where I still never felt safe.
But I do feel safe here, so there's that. The men can be rude, disrespectful and disgusting but I don't worry about being gunned down.
As for the sexism here, I could have never imagined and wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced it first hand. I also tried to date here and was disgusted and appalled at the disrespectful way I was treated. But I found a partner in Spain who is lovely, not that I need a partner, I'm very happy not having one! It also helps that I am not really attracted to men LOL.
It saddens me to hear that it's so difficult (or impossible really) to form authentic relationships with Italians there. That is not the case here. I have several close Portuguese female friends.
It's so nice to hear that you loved the article 🩷.
And I am so sorry to hear about misogyny gutting you every day in Portugal. I am not surprised and I "hear" you on a deep level.
It sounds like your dating experiences were horrendous. This really highlights the difference in moving abroad with a partner versus as a single woman. If the woman moving abroad with a spouse/partner is in a healthy and supportive relationship, the difference is pretty massive, as it goes from having a built-in source of support & nurturing and a "barrier" to the crap, versus dealing with " rude, disrespectful and disgusting" as you put it, and then having no one at home to counteract it, with the kind of support that can soften the blow.
The thing about friendships, keep in mind that I'm in Florence. As someone else said in the comments, it's different in small towns.
To answer your question, I have been going back to California often to get what I don't get in Italy. Yet I don't want to give up Italy. And yet I can't afford both places. So honestly, I am dithering.
I also forgot to mention the constant questioning here (even by uber drivers) "are you married? did you move here with your family? do you live with your husband?"
While I wouldn't lie to someone in my building, I started lying to the uber drivers! LOL. I also bought a fake wedding ring after week two here and that really helped a lot but not always, some guys keep pushing anyway. I've had to scream "no means f-ing no ass%%%" more times than I can count. But here, and in many other places in the world, it just doesn't. :(
I'm sorry to hear that it's difficult for you in Florence but it's interesting that it's location dependent. I spent a few months in Padua and had really great experiences, even with the men there. But I was a tourist, which is completely different. However, I did have an Italian boyfriend who I went back to visit (also in Padua) and he was incredibly respectful. I think it was a fluke 🤷🏽♀️
Would you consider moving elsewhere in Italy? It's great that you can go back to California to find community there! I had the opposite experience. I'm a born and raised Californian but I never had a community there, yet I finally have one here.
I really hope you don't give up on Italy though but I know that each of us has to do what's right for us.
Regarding uber/taxi drivers, a year ago, while working on my manuscript, I wrote a scene of that exact situation. My protagonist is an American woman in Athens and a taxi driver behaves in that way with her. Of course the scene came easily since I've experienced it many times. I have not experienced in Florence in the past decade but back in the 1980s and 1990s when I was in various southern European countries and various Asian countries, it happened.
As far as considering elsewhere in Italy, right now it doesn't make sense because I need to work. My expertise is Florentine Renaissance. That's what master's degree is in. And I'm an accredited guide to the city's museums. Plus, the patriarchy follows us everywhere unless we can beam ourselves back to Minoan Crete or Neolithic Çatalhöyük.
Oooooohhhh you’re working there! That makes perfect sense of course!!
It’s ridiculous that men (especially taxi/uber drivers) seem to think they’re allowed to give us their unsolicited advice, opinions and judgment!
I once had a taxi driver in Texas tell me I was far too old to wear a short/ish flower skirt (it still covered my knees) when I was in my 40’s. I wish I’d reported him.
Gawd it gets old 😬. First the visual scrutiny of our bodies and clothes and then the verbal pronouncements, from men we don’t even know! Can you imagine a female taxi driver giving a male passenger that same kind of scrutiny followed by a statement that he’s too old to be wearing a T-shirt that shows his arms?
It really does get old! And we've been dealing with it ALL our lives which is really just silly and also devastating :( And no, I cannot imagine the reverse happening because it never would ***sigh****
wow.. this depresses me a bit, but I also recognize the truth of it. My father worried about me in Italy when terrorists were bombing various places around Europe years ago. I told him that I felt far safer out of the gun culture and mass shootings in the States. I have a hard time knowing what is a cultural difference and what is just a negative person. Thank you for this addition of the joys and trials of Portugal.
Hi Kelly, I'll jump in here to say that no matter how misogynistic I find it in Europe, I've still never felt safer. You're right there isn't a gun culture here and I was terrified pretty all the time in the U.S.
Being a married male I can't comment from personal experience on violence against women in Italy although I have heard similar experiences like yours from single stranieri women. About making friends with locals my experience has been a little different and I believe it comes from living in a small village as opposed to a city like Florence. Yes, it's true that the locals have generations of tightly knit connections. But we have been successful in being not only accepted into the local community but actively invited to participate. We are invited to their parties and they to ours. We go to restaurants together. I think one of the keys to developing these relationships is learning to speak Italian and having these relationships goes a huge way to improving your own Italian language skills. And to top it off, in small towns men hug men, women hug women and women and men hug for joyful or sad occasions.
Thanks for sharing. Yes, speaking Italian is crucial. And that's not a problem for me.
I can imagine it's quite different in a village versus in Florence. I could consider a village at some point if I didn't have to work, but I don't have much padding financially and I have work in Florence.
I know you can communicate well in Italian and we all live in places that fulfill our needs and/or wants at any particular point in life. I just wanted to point out that urban and rural quality of life experiences may differ. I love going to Florence for the theater, ethnic restaurants, stores, art, sights, markets, the list goes on and on. In our little village have few, and some times none, of the amenities a city like Florence has.
I think you have done a very good job highlighting some of the less attractive aspects of living in Italy. When I was younger I had to be on-guard walking around as a single woman in Italy. As you describe it, there is a sense of entitlement amongst many men and a tendency to make assumptions about our availability as a foreigner. Making new friends later in life is difficult, no matter where you live. Italians are much more insular and tradition bound than Californians I think. Are there any clubs or activities that cross cultures and make it possible to penetrate the closed family/friend unit? Thank you for sharing so insightfully Chandi.
Yes, it is the sense of entitlement. Unfortunately the culture has fed this to them for a long time and it will be tough to shift it. The Italian woman on the video clip points out a cultural practice that feeds this problem.
You nailed it with Italians being more insular and tradition bound than Californians. The main clubs and activities I know of are headed up by foreigners and aimed at foreigners, although some Italians attend. I tried to join an Italian hiking group, but without a car it didn't work.
Thank you. Great article. And you’re right, most people have completely romanticized what it’s like to live in Italy. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve lived in Sicily for the past three years, and I absolutely love it, however, there definitely are challenges.
Hi,
Thanks for sharing. Where in Sicily are you?
I really appreciate the candor in this post- finally! Someone saying the quiet parts out loud! Or even willing to take the blinders off to see the dark parts to begin with. I have been quite mortified for some time (let's be honest, more than usual being a woman on planet earth) after witnessing a male journalist in Florence nonchalantly mention at a dinner he was late because he had to write a story about a homicide, when I inquired on the details he said a woman had been murdered by her companion. Shocked, but still in the right of mind to snap back "so it was a femicide, not a homicide." He shrugged his shoulders and said "I guess!" and moved on. Tucking into a free meal while a woman he just hurriedly wrote about (and couldn't be bothered to name the crime accurately!) laid dead at the hands of the indifferent patriarchy.
Wow, Coral, I can imagine how you felt. I would have had so much rage combined with an awful sense of hopelessness at the enormity of how women's lives truly do not matter in this f'ed up patriarchy. Thank you for your comment. Sending you a hug.
Wow — this hit hard and honest. Thank you for having the guts to write it. As a fellow Californian (albeit a foreigner) actively planning my move to Italy, I found myself nodding through so much of this — especially the contrast between vacation Italy and real-life Italy.
We’ve over-romanticized Italy into something that doesn’t always exist, and that mythmaking fuels unrealistic expectations… and yes, over-tourism. The dream of pasta under olive trees doesn’t include the paperwork, the isolation, or what it feels like to be “the outsider” — especially as a woman, and especially when solo. I’m grateful you’re willing to call that out without sugarcoating it.
I’m moving with my family when I retire, and even with that support, I already sense how challenging integration could be. Italians can be incredibly warm — but not necessarily open in the way many Americans expect. The “tight tribe” thing is real, and it’s tough when you weren’t born into it. But as a perpetual straniero who’s moved from country to country, I’ve come to expect that kind of guardedness. It doesn’t surprise me anymore — if anything, it feels like part of the deal. You arrive. You observe. You adapt. And sometimes you still remain on the edges — and that has to be okay.
What I think about more, though, is how this will land for my daughters. They’ve been raised in California — where kindness, inclusion, and emotional openness are the norm — and soon they’ll be young women navigating a new culture that doesn’t always reward those traits. I want them to love Italy for its beauty and rhythm, but also be aware of the cultural dynamics they’ll face. The warmth here is real, but it’s not the same as belonging — and they’ll need to learn how to find strength in that space in-between.
Also? You’re spot-on about Florence. Beautiful, yes. But as a Californian who thrives on casual connection and laid-back openness, I totally get the mazza nel culo vibe. 😬
This was brave, sharp, and needed. More of this, please.
Ciao Cesare! Your comment is so nice and thoughtful and lovely💛 Thank you!
Where in California are you? What location in Italy have you chosen? You'll have to let me know if there's any mazza nel culo there! 😆
Ciao Chandi! Currently LA is my home and fish tacos and a Corona are my go to comfort foods. We have picked Liguria…and not the overrated Cinque Terre/Portofino side but closer to Sanremo/Imperia. People seem to be pretty chill in smaller towns and a good bottle of Vermentino is a great social lubricant. I look forward to more of your posts and thanks for subscribing to my humble early musings! A presto!
Ahhhh fish tacos! My FAVORITE and my first go-to when I am back in California! 🤩
I love Liguria. So many beautiful places there. My hometown of Santa Cruz is twined with Sestri Levante.
Thanks for opening up and sharing, Shandi. I am sorry you've had to go through those experiences, but it's important that you share them. I live in Belize, and sexism is alive and well here, too. Oddly enough, it's often reinforced by women. For example, the immigration department, whose staff is easily 50% women, prefers that residency applications be presented by men, with women and children listed as dependents (regardless of income-earning status). If you attempt to stray from this "norm," you will face additional bureaucratic hurdles (the process is already a time-consuming and frustrating one).
Femicide and violence against women are also a significant issue here. Thankfully, my family and I are sheltered from this disturbing aspect of Belizean life.
As I'm sure is the same for many others who read your piece, I was unaware that these issues were so prevalent in Italy; your piece was eye-opening. Thanks for expanding my awareness, Shandi.
Thanks for your comment Simo!
Loved this post, as well as Huddle Masses, Is It Romanticized, and Two Things You Must Know. It’s important to add some unvarnished truth to the romanticized views in film and social media. We moved to Lucca 8 months ago and are loving it here, but we had lots of preparation. We spent 35 years traveling throughout Italy before making the move. My husband formerly worked in Italy, and I spent years in state government, so we both have an understanding of, and high tolerance for, bureaucracy. We’re also in a privileged position—married and retired—and my government pension is not taxed in Italy. (That would change if I became a citizen, but the contribution toward health care that I will pay as a non-citizen is far less than the tax burden as a citizen.) My husband is presently studying for his license, but I have no intention of driving here, so we carefully chose a location where I can walk nearly everywhere. The friendship part is also true. We’ve made some Italian friends, but we’ve made many more friends within Lucca’s expat/immigrant community. All in all, living in Italy is good for us, but it’s most definitely not for everyone.
Hey Lisa,
Fun to hear you are in Lucca. I lived there for a year-and-a-half stint in 2017/18. Also, because of family friends there, it was a key place I spent time on my first trip to Italy in the 1980s when I was backpacking around on $10 a day.
Lucca has sure gotten on the tourist radar lately in a way it never used to be!
Oh man I feel the lack of hugs! Didn’t realize that about Italy. I’m in NZ, where they don’t hug either. I do it anyways. It gets awkward
😉
I moved to Italy with my partner and daughter, so my experience has been quite different from that of a single woman. Thank you for shedding light on a side of Italy that many people - especially those drawn by the "I need to get out of America" impulse - might not consider. Whether it’s a cultural blind spot or a generational issue, I can confirm that these challenges do exist for women here. Strength and resilience are definitely essential for anyone planning to make the leap. I’ve noticed some small signs of progress as a foreigner living here, which is encouraging, but the pace of change is still very slow.
Hi Cassandra,
Thanks for sharing. Resilience is a good word 😉 Where in Italy are you?
This is a valuable post; thank you. As an American from a progressive state, I wonder how it would feel to be a woman in Italy. This gives me a point of view that is not often emphasized and I am appreciative. I’m an older woman with a spouse, but it worries me to live in a patriarchal society when I’ve fought so long in my career to be on equal footing with men. I still want to come and live there, but am beginning to think doing so for an extended period could be very hard. ♥️
Hi Eileen, I'm glad you found it valuable.
Twenty years ago, I lived in Florence with my American husband, back when I was married. And in my experience, foreign women in Italy are treated by Italian men quite differently when they have a husband at their sides.
Apart from the experience 20 years ago, I could also tell during the recent experiences while remodeling, that I definitely would have been treated differently if a husband had existed. He wouldn't even have needed to be able to speak Italian. If his presence was detected, it would have been enough.
I will also say that I have encountered plenty of American couples in Italy where the woman is immune to it because of the existence of her husband.
I empathize with your comment about fighting in your career to be on equal footing. Story of most women's career lives. I'm curious what your job was and what state you live in?
I read your posts re: remodeling and am horrified that the contractors felt they had agency to touch you. 😞
Thanks. And it more than touching. It was grabbing aggressively over and over.
😡 that really angers me- any man feeling that this is ok is crazy! Question: are there women contractors there? We are seeing more women in the trades here…
I've never encountered female contractors in Italy, but it's not like I am in the business of renovating places all around Italy so I really don't know. But normally you would hire an architect and the architect would find the contractor. There are female architects.
In my case, I did have an architect for some of it, but for other things I hired workers on my own. And the worst problems were from those who I hired on my own.
I love in Oregon and I’m a product developer in tech (remote).
I am so glad you mentioned the critiquing! Italian boyfriends exhaust me by criticizing 1) things that I never even anticipated merited a discussion 2) continue on a roll even after I have cried, "BASSSTTTTAAAAAA! ho capito 10 minuti fa!" and 3) tend to criticize stuff that they are guilty of doing more than I am and 4) and this is not just boyfriends: cannot accept that I grew up in a different culture and can do things in a different way than what they learned and still live a good life. [You did mention this, but I am just corroborating it.] Oh, and seem to ignore (or forget) explanations for WHY I do what I do and just remember that I am an idiot.
Kelly! It's a relief to read your comment and know it's not just me 🩷 Thanks for sharing.
Congrats on your post, Chandi, it’s well put. I now spend most of my retirement in Tuscany, and although I feel quite at home, having been born here and immigrated to Canada when I was 10, I’ve had to re-adapt to many cultural differences.
I love what Italy offers me, as I share each week in my newsletter, Sipping Italy with Tino. The way I see it, like everything else in life, you need to give up something to gain something. There’s a price for everything.
I’m deeply grateful for what Canada gave me, but at this stage in my life, it’s time to indulge in art, music, good food, lazy afternoons in the Tuscan countryside, strolls through weekly markets, and the sound of church bells reminding me that some old traditions still endure.
I’ve chosen to put on a pair of blinders and focus only on what brings me joy. And thankfully, there’s plenty of that here. Keep on writing, it’s wonderful.
Ciao Tino,
Thanks for sharing and for the encouragement to keep writing! I appreciate it.
Yes, for sure, it's a giving up of some things and a gaining of others. A lot of mettersi in gioco 😉
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It’s easy for people to fall in love with the fantasy of a place.
I’m part of a couple who moved from the US to Mexico in 2017. Moving to another country is not all sunshine and rainbows and I think it’s important to share some of the downsides.
Thanks Jen. Mexico would be one of my top choices to live after Italy and California. Where in Mexico are you?
Playa del Carmen. It’s a resort town but so young there are few people “from Playa.” We’re nearly all transplants - including Mexicans — so it creates a nice inconclusive vibe.
Ah, the Mayan Riviera. There was a chunk of time when I was living in Colorado, when I went as often as I could to Playa and Tulum. For a period of about 5 years I managed once a year. Then I moved to Qatar. And I haven't been back to the Mayan Riviera since 2012. As much as I loved Playa and Tulum, I was disconcerted to see so much development and not always for the better, each time I went. But I do love the area and I'd be interested to hear more about your life there.
We love it but it has grown a LOT since 2012. You wouldn’t recognize it. SO much building. Just walked up 5th to 54th street and it’s packed with condos, shops, and restaurants the whole way. That was a quiet neighborhood when we first came here.
How is Qatar?
Yeah, and Playa grew A LOT in the years I was going there, between 2004 and 2012. To the point where I did not like it as much in the later years. I much preferred the earlier version.
Qatar was super interesting. I learned so much about that part of the world and met great people. It was an incredibly safe place to live. There are NO gun stores at all.
I'm so sorry to hear how you've been treated in Tuscany. It's really unfair. I appreciate your sharing your insights and observations, especially since I have a number of very important women in my life--four daughters and a wife--who all spend some time in Italy. Some of them have experiences in common with you, although you're also right that they are spared some of the discrimination because they have a husband/father nearby. Your story may be very valuable for anyone thinking of pulling up roots to move to Italy, or any foreign country, for that matter.
Ciao Paul,
Yes, and since you used the word "unfair" I will say it can feel unfair that the only way I would have spared the ugly stuff that happened during the remodel is if I'd had a dude at my side 😬
These lines really struck me: "Florence, for me, has to be about the history, art, and beauty. But as far as people who really feel like my people, they are where I grew up in Santa Cruz."
I wrote a post a few months ago called "A beautiful existence or a full life?" and found myself digging really deeply into these kinds of tradeoffs. People need to know that anywhere you go, there will be downsides, some of them serious. And maybe it will still be worth it! But an international move has a much higher chance of success when people go into it with open eyes.
My husband and I moved to Italy almost two decades ago with small children, so I didn't experience the gender-specific challenges you mention. But we did find it so hard to make ends meet on Italian salaries that we ended up moving to the Netherlands. Looking back, I'm happy my daughter grew up somewhere with better gender equality, especially every single time I read about another femicide in Italy.
That said, we're still in love with Italy. My husband and I bought a little stone house in Umbria last year, and we're planning to move back now that we're more financially stable and both kids will be off to university in the next couple of years. My husband will continue his (remote) job at an international company, and I'm planning to start a little bookshop downstairs.
What about you? Is Florence a long-term home for you? What do you do to fill that need for hugs and people who feel like your people?
Hi Sarah,
Wow, I am getting all the feels with your sentence: "I'm happy my daughter grew up somewhere with better gender equality, especially every single time I read about another femicide in Italy."
I have such a hard time with what girls and young women face in the patriarchy. That is not say that "older" women don't face it too, as my story attests, but what makes me ache is looking back on the shock of it hitting me like a big rig truck when I was 15 and having no preparation for it. And I really hate to think of any young being in the same situation.
The male gaze was suddenly all over me, unrelenting, while inside I was still a girl who didn't know I'd changed. Who didn't know this big rig truck was barreling my way, and who certainly didn't know how to handle it.
As I entered the world of restaurant work as a teen, and then backpacked in Europe and Asia at ages 19 and 20, objectification and sexism was constantly coming at me, and I didn't know how to handle it. There was no training. My parents and teachers never mentioned the word "patriarchy" or "male gaze" or "objectification". No one prepped us girls for what we'd face. No one taught us how to say no, how to have boundaries. It was way before the internet so if we didn't get it at home or in school, there was no place to encounter people talking about it.
It was this "thing" that hit me out of nowhere and that left me shocked and confused. Since no one said it was "a thing" and since it didn't have a name, I couldn't get a grasp on it.
All that to say, I really hate the idea of young women suddenly realizing they are not safe in the world--suddenly learning about femicide and "learning" that the world doesn't care about women's lives.
I LOVE this article, thank you so much Chandi for sharing these perspectives! I am a solo female who moved abroad without knowing a support group as well.
I had originally wanted to move to Italy but ended up in Portugal, where the massive amount of misogyny surprises and guts me, every single day.
There is also a huge problem with domestic violence here and nothing is done to the men committing it. I've had some crazy experiences, all from overtly aggressive men here. Things that never happened to me in California, where I still never felt safe.
But I do feel safe here, so there's that. The men can be rude, disrespectful and disgusting but I don't worry about being gunned down.
As for the sexism here, I could have never imagined and wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced it first hand. I also tried to date here and was disgusted and appalled at the disrespectful way I was treated. But I found a partner in Spain who is lovely, not that I need a partner, I'm very happy not having one! It also helps that I am not really attracted to men LOL.
It saddens me to hear that it's so difficult (or impossible really) to form authentic relationships with Italians there. That is not the case here. I have several close Portuguese female friends.
My question to you is this: why do you stay?
Hi Kimberly,
It's so nice to hear that you loved the article 🩷.
And I am so sorry to hear about misogyny gutting you every day in Portugal. I am not surprised and I "hear" you on a deep level.
It sounds like your dating experiences were horrendous. This really highlights the difference in moving abroad with a partner versus as a single woman. If the woman moving abroad with a spouse/partner is in a healthy and supportive relationship, the difference is pretty massive, as it goes from having a built-in source of support & nurturing and a "barrier" to the crap, versus dealing with " rude, disrespectful and disgusting" as you put it, and then having no one at home to counteract it, with the kind of support that can soften the blow.
The thing about friendships, keep in mind that I'm in Florence. As someone else said in the comments, it's different in small towns.
To answer your question, I have been going back to California often to get what I don't get in Italy. Yet I don't want to give up Italy. And yet I can't afford both places. So honestly, I am dithering.
Hi Chandi,
I also forgot to mention the constant questioning here (even by uber drivers) "are you married? did you move here with your family? do you live with your husband?"
While I wouldn't lie to someone in my building, I started lying to the uber drivers! LOL. I also bought a fake wedding ring after week two here and that really helped a lot but not always, some guys keep pushing anyway. I've had to scream "no means f-ing no ass%%%" more times than I can count. But here, and in many other places in the world, it just doesn't. :(
I'm sorry to hear that it's difficult for you in Florence but it's interesting that it's location dependent. I spent a few months in Padua and had really great experiences, even with the men there. But I was a tourist, which is completely different. However, I did have an Italian boyfriend who I went back to visit (also in Padua) and he was incredibly respectful. I think it was a fluke 🤷🏽♀️
Would you consider moving elsewhere in Italy? It's great that you can go back to California to find community there! I had the opposite experience. I'm a born and raised Californian but I never had a community there, yet I finally have one here.
I really hope you don't give up on Italy though but I know that each of us has to do what's right for us.
Hugs from someone in your court!!!! 🤗🤗🤗
Hi!
Regarding uber/taxi drivers, a year ago, while working on my manuscript, I wrote a scene of that exact situation. My protagonist is an American woman in Athens and a taxi driver behaves in that way with her. Of course the scene came easily since I've experienced it many times. I have not experienced in Florence in the past decade but back in the 1980s and 1990s when I was in various southern European countries and various Asian countries, it happened.
As far as considering elsewhere in Italy, right now it doesn't make sense because I need to work. My expertise is Florentine Renaissance. That's what master's degree is in. And I'm an accredited guide to the city's museums. Plus, the patriarchy follows us everywhere unless we can beam ourselves back to Minoan Crete or Neolithic Çatalhöyük.
Oooooohhhh you’re working there! That makes perfect sense of course!!
It’s ridiculous that men (especially taxi/uber drivers) seem to think they’re allowed to give us their unsolicited advice, opinions and judgment!
I once had a taxi driver in Texas tell me I was far too old to wear a short/ish flower skirt (it still covered my knees) when I was in my 40’s. I wish I’d reported him.
Gawd it gets old 😬. First the visual scrutiny of our bodies and clothes and then the verbal pronouncements, from men we don’t even know! Can you imagine a female taxi driver giving a male passenger that same kind of scrutiny followed by a statement that he’s too old to be wearing a T-shirt that shows his arms?
It really does get old! And we've been dealing with it ALL our lives which is really just silly and also devastating :( And no, I cannot imagine the reverse happening because it never would ***sigh****
Thank you for your the conversation Chandi!!!
wow.. this depresses me a bit, but I also recognize the truth of it. My father worried about me in Italy when terrorists were bombing various places around Europe years ago. I told him that I felt far safer out of the gun culture and mass shootings in the States. I have a hard time knowing what is a cultural difference and what is just a negative person. Thank you for this addition of the joys and trials of Portugal.
Hi Kelly, I'll jump in here to say that no matter how misogynistic I find it in Europe, I've still never felt safer. You're right there isn't a gun culture here and I was terrified pretty all the time in the U.S.
Being a married male I can't comment from personal experience on violence against women in Italy although I have heard similar experiences like yours from single stranieri women. About making friends with locals my experience has been a little different and I believe it comes from living in a small village as opposed to a city like Florence. Yes, it's true that the locals have generations of tightly knit connections. But we have been successful in being not only accepted into the local community but actively invited to participate. We are invited to their parties and they to ours. We go to restaurants together. I think one of the keys to developing these relationships is learning to speak Italian and having these relationships goes a huge way to improving your own Italian language skills. And to top it off, in small towns men hug men, women hug women and women and men hug for joyful or sad occasions.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for sharing. Yes, speaking Italian is crucial. And that's not a problem for me.
I can imagine it's quite different in a village versus in Florence. I could consider a village at some point if I didn't have to work, but I don't have much padding financially and I have work in Florence.
I know you can communicate well in Italian and we all live in places that fulfill our needs and/or wants at any particular point in life. I just wanted to point out that urban and rural quality of life experiences may differ. I love going to Florence for the theater, ethnic restaurants, stores, art, sights, markets, the list goes on and on. In our little village have few, and some times none, of the amenities a city like Florence has.
I think you have done a very good job highlighting some of the less attractive aspects of living in Italy. When I was younger I had to be on-guard walking around as a single woman in Italy. As you describe it, there is a sense of entitlement amongst many men and a tendency to make assumptions about our availability as a foreigner. Making new friends later in life is difficult, no matter where you live. Italians are much more insular and tradition bound than Californians I think. Are there any clubs or activities that cross cultures and make it possible to penetrate the closed family/friend unit? Thank you for sharing so insightfully Chandi.
Hi! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Yes, it is the sense of entitlement. Unfortunately the culture has fed this to them for a long time and it will be tough to shift it. The Italian woman on the video clip points out a cultural practice that feeds this problem.
You nailed it with Italians being more insular and tradition bound than Californians. The main clubs and activities I know of are headed up by foreigners and aimed at foreigners, although some Italians attend. I tried to join an Italian hiking group, but without a car it didn't work.